Damage Per Second, or How I Learned to Love The Buffs - Page 4 - Guild Wars Forums - GW Guru

Guild Wars Forums - GW Guru

		Guild Wars Forums - GW Guru > The Inner Circle > The Riverside Inn
Damage Per Second, or How I Learned to Love The Buffs

Mark Forums Read

Reply

Page 4 of 4

4

Mar 16, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49	#61
torry Academy Page Join Date: Mar 2005	Charles, it would be valuable to see the DPS of base adrenaline attacks in your table. Why? Because they stack independantly and with everything else. So 3 adrenaline attacks could add 3+3+3 = 10 DPS. While Energy attacks do not stack, as they draw from the same energy pool. Skill A will mean less of Skill B, or no Skill C.

Old

Mar 16, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

#62

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Berkeley, CA

Guild: Idiot Savants

Default

Great post Ellestar - our models and mathematics are virtually identical, though yours is more rigorous. Thanks for posting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

So i don't understand how you come to a conclusion that every additional target beyond the first is worth 1/2 as much as hitting a single target.

The answer to this is sitting a paragraph earlier, actually:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

So, it's (N * (N + 1) / 2) / N = ((N + 1) / 2) times more efficient than killing enemies one at a time by a focus fire.

If you're hitting N enemies simultaneously with an attack, that's (N + 1) / 2 times as efficient as just hitting one enemy - which should look familiar, as that's the relationship I referred to. It equals 1 for a single target (normal damage), 1.5 for two targets, 2 for three targets, 2.5 for four targets, etc. Hence, +50% DPS per additional target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

If you divide your damage between all targets, then obviously you just kill all targets simultaneously.

The difference is that you're looking at it from the perspective of dividing your damage - and, indeed, dividing your damage cuts into effectiveness. But the original basis wasn't one of dividing your damage, but of 'how much extra effectiveness you gain by catching people in an AoE.'

Basically, if an AoE skill deals 20 DPS to a single target, it'll deal (effectively) 30 DPS if you can catch two people in the AoE, 40 DPS if you can catch three people, etc. This matches the relationship and basis as given.

Now, if instead we compared it to your basis of dividing damage, catching two people in an AoE isn't 1.5x as efficient as hitting a single target, it's .75x as efficient as though that damage were all concentrated onto a single target. But if the damage were concentrated you'd have 40 DPS, and the penalty for division gives you 30 DPS. Similarly, for three targets you'd have 60 DPS raw, but the penalty for division is (N + 1) / 2N = 2/3, so you effectively only get 40 DPS - again, the same result.

It's just a difference of basis. Our mathematics are identical - thank you again for spelling out the rigorous details.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

Maybe someone will confirm or deny this?

Confirmed - stacking a whole bunch of adrenal skills makes the chains a bit messier than simply adding up all of your DPS numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

What if they surround target first?

It might be possible to get eight Warriors attacking a single target. It might not be possible - I've never tried. I do know that after around three Warriors collision detection starts to be a big deal, and you can't just pile Warriors onto a target without very careful packing. In practice this means that after three Warriors you're starting to cut into your effectiveness because you're spending a lot more time trying to make room than actually dealing damage - hence it becomes impractical and not recommended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

Generally it's better to save limited power you have for this final assault.

I couldn't disagree with this more. Get your best damage in early when the target is still soft. Once the opponent has had a chance to react you're going to see armor buffs, deflection bonuses, and a bunch of other defenses that will cut into your assault. If you couldn't deal enough damage to kill someone before the defenses come up, you aren't going to deal anywhere near enough once they drop a Sheild of Deflection on the target.

So get as much in early as you can, then concentrate on punching holes in their defense so you can finish them off. In practice this means damage that's slower but ignores defenses, because punching through defenses (aka, enchantment removal) is impractical.

Peace,
-CxE

__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.

Ensign is offline

Reply With Quote

Old

Mar 16, 2005, 09:11 PM // 21:11

#63

Rellok

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Madison, WI

Profession: W/Mo

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Confirmed - stacking a whole bunch of adrenal skills makes the chains a bit messier than simply adding up all of your DPS numbers.

I believe that any adrenal skill drains 1 adren from each adren pool, however, if the skill successfully hits, you gain one everywhere anyway. So, basically if you are trying to put together adren trains, you need to get the highest adren you will need without adren attacks (unless they hit multiple targets).

Great info guys,

Matt

Rellok is offline

Reply With Quote

Old

Mar 22, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

#64

Ellestar

Munchking

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Russian Federation, Moscow

Guild: Ladder to Hell (ATM playing with Rus Corp)

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you're hitting N enemies simultaneously with an attack, that's (N + 1) / 2 times as efficient as just hitting one enemy - which should look familiar, as that's the relationship I referred to. It equals 1 for a single target (normal damage), 1.5 for two targets, 2 for three targets, 2.5 for four targets, etc. Hence, +50% DPS per additional target.

First, it's true only when there are N enemies total. In GW, you have 8 enemies total. So it's wrong. Second, there is a difference between dealing all damage only with that kind of AoE attack and killing N enemies or just hitting N enemies with that attack for some percent of their life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I couldn't disagree with this more. Get your best damage in early when the target is still soft. Once the opponent has had a chance to react you're going to see armor buffs, deflection bonuses, and a bunch of other defenses that will cut into your assault. If you couldn't deal enough damage to kill someone before the defenses come up, you aren't going to deal anywhere near enough once they drop a Sheild of Deflection on the target.

So get as much in early as you can, then concentrate on punching holes in their defense so you can finish them off. In practice this means damage that's slower but ignores defenses, because punching through defenses (aka, enchantment removal) is impractical.

So, if your primary damage-dealers are warriors, then you save your limited resources to finish your enemy, but you don't use it at the beginning - say, in your example it's the damage that ignores defence and energy you need to use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=35
As mentioned multiple times in this thread, what you're trying to find here, is a good way to compare dmg dealing capabilities in a simple way. Introducing side effects such as equipment will lead to a pandemonium of arguments. Sure, there are broken mods for warriors but why not taking about account other mods as well.

Basically I'm in favor of pure dmg dealing comparison (i.e: pure killing machine potential) without any outside interference. No external buff, no equipment. When this case of study has been beaten to death, we can talk about equipment or group dmg potential.

That way you'll get a meaningless result because in practice things will be different. Metagame is always important in Min/Maxing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keramon

One of the most effective benefits of AOE is the effect of confusion. Casting it into the center of a group often results in the said group being split up and running in different directions and concentrating on getting away from the AOE rather than attacking for a few seconds. That is not something that is measurable however, it should still be mentioned.

Experience teams will not be confused under normal conditons, but AoE DoTs still may be very useful if used right. For example, you cast a fire storm on a monk. It's not a good idea to stay under a fire storm for a full duration so monk will try to move out of this area. Of course, it's easy to do it under normal conditions. But when someone is under a heavy focus fire, monk may not have a free time to move out of a fire storm area immediately. If he's snared, then it's even more efficient because he either spends more time moving or recieves full damage. Also, it reduces strain on a friendly monks if you catch some enemy ranged damage-dealers in an AoE because they will spend time moving too.

__________________
Knowledge is Power!
Russian Guild Wars fansite staff http://www.guildwars.ru/

Ellestar is offline

Reply With Quote

Mar 22, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40	#65
Blackace Guest	Too bad that the fire line sucks horribly. Chaos storm>Fire magic.

Mar 24, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27	#66
Lamaros Academy Page Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Australia	The problem with focus fire is it's easy to counter. The problem with AOE is that you wont kill anyone that way. So do a bit of both: AOE to 'soften' multiple targets. Then you hit burst damage on a likely target. As the advantage of AOE, in damaging multiple targets, is that it allows you to set up many options of what to kill without the enemy knowing where they should concentrate defence. If you pick one they dont heal straight away (and they are unable to heal them all) with the burst damage (we know Galrath+Final can do near 300 damage to the proper undefended targets), before they can get the heavy defences up then you'll kill someone. Simple philosophy: Focused Healing > Focused Attacking Group Healing > AOE attacking. The aim is to make them group heal when you're focusing, and focus heal when you're group attacking. But even the above is probably too specific an example... "Metagame is always important in Min/Maxing" "Attack is the best defence" "<insert random Sun Tzu quote here>" Winning isn't about Burst or AOE damage, it's about doing something that your enemy has no counter for. Knowing what your enemy is going to do, or forcing them to act in a specific way, provides you with this opportunity. So much better to look at Burst DPS and AOE DPS as different tools at your disposal, rather then in direct comparison. What is useful is looking at what does the best Burst DPS, Best AOE DPS, and how. This allows you to know how to deploy it most sucessfuly, how it can be countered.. etc etc.

Reply

Page 4 of 4

4

Share This Forum!

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Rules

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Bugs, Wishlist, Concepts, and Ideas [Warning, Big Post], Dev(s) please read.	Dubby	Sardelac Sanitarium	83	Aug 17, 2006 03:59 PM // 15:59
A Complete Guide to Skills - Roleplay Version	Storm Crow	Nolani Academy of Arts	21	Feb 05, 2006 02:50 AM // 02:50
Ideas for the New Assassin Profession	Guardian of the Light	Sardelac Sanitarium	354	Jan 09, 2006 03:16 PM // 15:16
Green Item Statistics	FyrFytr998	Price Check	6	Nov 14, 2005 10:52 PM // 22:52
wish101	Questions & Answers	7	May 15, 2005 01:22 AM // 01:22

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:43 AM // 02:43.

jQuery(document).ready(checkAds()); function checkAds(){if (document.getElementById('adsense')!=undefined){document.write("_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Adblock', 'Unblocked', 'false',,true]);");}else{document.write("